|
Post by basenoc on Nov 27, 2007 8:21:01 GMT -5
If i was voting: Remember, judge them by eras before and up until they retired. Don't compare them to today's Players. My iffy's are more no's than yes.
Brady Anderson - Never Harold Baines - Iffy Rod Beck - R.I.P. No Bert Blyleven - Yes Dave Concepción - This is his last yr on ballot - Iffy Andre Dawson - Yes Shawon Dunston - Never Chuck Finley - Never Travis Fryman - Never Rich "Goose" Gossage - GREATEST OF ALLTIMES - DEFINATELY YES Tommy John - For medical reason only, yes(Medical HOF) ;D David Justice - A winner - No Chuck Knoblauch - Never Don Mattingly - Iffy Mark McGwire - Definately Jack Morris - Iffy (i like "Black Jack") Dale Murphy - Iffy (boy, if he could've stayed healthy) Robb Nen - No Dave Parker - Iffy Tim Raines - DEFINATELY YES Jim Rice - Iffy José Rijo - Never Lee Smith - Yes Todd Stottlemyre - Never Alan Trammell - Yes (him and sweet Lou Whitaker were tremendous)
|
|
|
Post by nyjyrk on Nov 27, 2007 13:46:08 GMT -5
Brady Anderson - Never Agreed Harold Baines - Iffy Agree, but lean towards yes Rod Beck - R.I.P. No Agree Bert Blyleven - Yes Agreed WAY beyond overdue Dave Concepción - This is his last yr on ballot - Iffy I'd say yes Andre Dawson - Yes Agree Shawon Dunston - Never Agree Chuck Finley - Never Agree Travis Fryman - Never Agree Rich "Goose" Gossage - GREATEST OF ALLTIMES - DEFINATELY YES Agree Tommy John - For medical reason only, yes(Medical HOF) YesDavid Justice - A winner - No Chuck Knoblauch - Never Agree Don Mattingly - Iffy Agree, but lean towards yes Mark McGwire - Definately Agree Jack Morris - Iffy (i like "Black Jack") Yes, best pitcher in the 80s Dale Murphy - Iffy (boy, if he could've stayed healthy) Agree, but lean towards no. If he could have stayed healthy is right. He was one of the top five players for about five years Robb Nen - No Agree Dave Parker - Iffy Yes Tim Raines - DEFINATELY YES Agree Jim Rice - Iffy I'd say a definate yes. José Rijo - Never Agree Lee Smith - Yes Agree Todd Stottlemyre - Never Agree Alan Trammell - Yes (him and sweet Lou Whitaker were tremendous) Agree on both counts
|
|
|
Post by basenoc on Nov 27, 2007 14:38:31 GMT -5
You're right jyrk, the more i look at the list, i'm gonna change to YES on Donnie Baseball and Black Jack
|
|
|
Post by phillyhb on Nov 27, 2007 15:28:32 GMT -5
Brady Anderson - no Harold Baines - I can't decide either Rod Beck - no Bert Blyleven - Yes Dave Concepción - no Andre Dawson - Yes Shawon Dunston - no Chuck Finley - no Travis Fryman - no Rich "Goose" Gossage - yes Tommy John - did he do anything else besides get surgery? David Justice - no Chuck Knoblauch - no Don Mattingly - yes Mark McGwire - I'm still undecided about this guy Jack Morris - yes Dale Murphy - yes Robb Nen - No Dave Parker - this was tough I have to say no though Tim Raines - yes Jim Rice - yes José Rijo - no Lee Smith - Yes they shouldn't even have to debate this one Todd Stottlemyre - no Alan Trammell - Yes
|
|
|
Post by nyjyrk on Nov 27, 2007 16:18:01 GMT -5
Tommy John - did he do anything else besides get surgery? 288 wins, 3.34 ERA. 4 time all-star, Two time CYA runner up. He completely reinvented himself after the surgery. He was a strikeout pitcher before, and a finesse pitcher efter. What his detractors say is he wasn't dominant, but he was a lot like Jamie Moyer. He pitched to win. If he had a 1 run lead, he would be more selective in his pitches, if he had a 5 run lead, he'd make his pitches and make the hitter try to beat him. He was a great situational pitcher. When a runner was on 1st, he always tryed to induce the double play istead of striking the guys out. People also say that he hung on too long trying to get his 300th win.
|
|
|
Post by basenoc on Nov 27, 2007 16:39:46 GMT -5
Tommy John - did he do anything else besides get surgery? 288 wins, 3.34 ERA. 4 time all-star, Two time CYA runner up. He completely reinvented himself after the surgery. He was a strikeout pitcher before, and a finesse pitcher efter. What his detractors say is he wasn't dominant, but he was a lot like Jamie Moyer. He pitched to win. If he had a 1 run lead, he would be more selective in his pitches, if he had a 5 run lead, he'd make his pitches and make the hitter try to beat him. He was a great situational pitcher. When a runner was on 1st, he always tryed to induce the double play istead of striking the guys out. People also say that he hung on too long trying to get his 300th win. even though 300 was the bench mark then, i don't think it necessary nowadays the way they use starters now. is Pedro Martinez a borderline HOF the way he dominated the scene for so many years. i don't think he'll get 300. what about Schill, i know 6 still playing will be 1st time going in when they're done, Maddux, Glavine, Clemens, Johnson, Hoffman, Smoltz
|
|
|
Post by nyjyrk on Nov 27, 2007 21:05:27 GMT -5
Smoltz should be a lock no matter how many wins he finishes with. He gave up prime years as a starter to be a dominant closer for the good of the team. Dominant starter, dominant closer, sacrifice for the team, what else do you want?
|
|
|
Post by tomservo on Nov 28, 2007 0:59:54 GMT -5
300 wins is just a vague guideline, not an automatic cutoff. That being said. No for Tommy John. He was a very good pitcher. But never great or dominant. I think of all the sport hall of fames, baseball is the most selective and hardest to get into. This is what adds to the mystique and feeling of awe as you step into the hall in Cooperstown. The same logic applies for me with Concepcion. A very good player and I would love him on my team, but he didn't piss greatness. Of this class I think Gossage is the only shoe in. Dawson should get in but might not. Jim Rice has the numbers as does Mcguire, but their off the field stuff could go against them. A very compelling case could be made for Mattingly, but i don't think he'll get the votes.
|
|
|
Post by nyjyrk on Nov 28, 2007 11:11:58 GMT -5
I have always felt that if a player had a major injury that severly altered his career, and had HOF deserving numbers up to that point, he should be given the appropriate consideration. Many have been given this treatment before. i.e. Ralph Kiner, Kirby Puckett, Sandy Koufax, etc.
Mattingly had a similar injury to that of Ralph Kiner. In Kiner's day, a ruptured disk in your back was the end. Mattingly had surgery, but take it from someone who has had a similar surgery, you are never the same. Mattingly was arguably the second best defensive firstbaseman ever. If he were right handed, he would have been one of the best defensive thirdbaseman of all time as well.
Andre Dawson was a victim of bad artificial turf in Montreal that lead to both his knees needing surgery. His hustle, power, and cannon for an arm kept him playing through the pain. Despite that, he is one of only six players in major league history to record over 300 home runs (438) and 300 stolen bases (319) in his career. Had he stayed healthy all throughout his career, he would have been a first ballot lock.
Dale Murphy is another. From 1982 through 1987 I dare you to find a better all around player in the NL than Murph. 2 MVPs (with 2 more top ten finishes), 4 Silver Sluggers, 5 All-star game starts (7 total appearences), 5 gold gloves, all in that span of years. Keep in mind the era he played in as well. He lead the league in major categories with numbers that would barely get him in the top five today, but when you compare him to others in the same era, he's the best. Unfortunately he was very good, but not great the rest of his career. He didn't have one big injury, but a slew of little ones from knee to back problems, to elbow and wrist.
|
|
|
Post by basenoc on Nov 28, 2007 14:32:56 GMT -5
Both points are well taken. i would suggest that when Murphy, Hawk, Goose, Lee Arthur and John played, there were a slew of HOF caliber players in the league, so dominating for any giving period of time then was yomen work. You had Schmidt, Ryan, Rose, Murray, Jackson, Sutter, sutton, Bench, Stargell and Carlton just to name a few.
Oh yeah, my Favorite leadoff hitter, Ricky Henderson
|
|
|
Post by tomservo on Nov 28, 2007 19:44:11 GMT -5
But Henderson is still playing!
|
|
|
Post by nyjyrk on Nov 29, 2007 12:33:19 GMT -5
Sort of. He'll be on the ballot next year if he doesn't make an MLB roster. Playing in independent leagues doesn't count against his retired status.
|
|
|
Post by tomservo on Nov 29, 2007 14:32:39 GMT -5
That was meant very tongue in cheek. I'd have to disagree with base's assertion that there were more HOF players in one period. There are about the same number of HOF players playing every year. You're just looking back to the time you best remember that can't be compared to today, because guys are still putting up numbers.
|
|